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Old 07-02-2013, 11:25 AM   #11
WaveSurfer
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Quote from a source on the possible offsprings between a Snow White and Pigeon Blood, pasting here for future reference (source):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod View Post
Both snow white and pigeon are controlled by a dominant gene. Snow white is also homozygous (meaning it has 2 identical mutant dna sequences). Pigeon can be either homozygous or heterozygous (only 1 mutant dna sequence)

When we breed these together, the resulting fry will all be snow white based as this gene dominates over pigeon, every single one of them. But they will be heterozygous offspring.

I'll try and explain a little better. The discus egg gets 1 dna sequence from each parent at conception, to make a pair of dna sequences on each position of the chromosomes of the new baby. This determines what the fish will look like. Homozygous = identical pairing of dna sequence. When we cross this does not happen, we are getting 2 different dna sequences so this is called heterozygous.

Lets assume your pigeon is also homozygous. This means the fry will be both pigeon and snow white based. Both dominant genes struggling for exposure. We already discussed above that all the fry will be snow white based, and indeed this is true. But none will look like a snow white, there will be markings and pattern inherited from the pigeon gene. And the white won't be the crisp white of the snow white, but more a greyish tint. Essentially it is trying to look like both, with neither quite succeeding.

When we inbreed these discus, we will receive a dna sequence from each parent to the f2. The sequence will be either pigeon or snow white from each parent, quite randomly. Each sperm will be either a pigeon sperm or a snow white sperm, NOT a mixed sperm as many believe. The same goes for the egg, it is either a snow white egg, or a pigeon egg as the mother is both a pigeon and a snow white (remember she is heterozyous). She makes both types of eggs because she has both genes. We use a punnet square as a math tool for statistics, to calculate the results when sperm meets egg. In this case it will be 25% snow whites(homozygous), 25% pigeons (homozygous) and 50% will be just like the f1's (crossed looking heterozygous)

In the case where your pigeon is heterozygous (unlike snow white, the heterozygous and homozygous pigeon look identical), this means it has both the pigeon dna sequence, and the wild type dna sequence (wild because that is what the pigeon mutated from) so when we cross with snow white you will receive all white/grey based babies as above, 50% will also be pigeon and 50 % will be wild based as well. They will all in likelihood look similar to each other. But when we breed the f2 many results are possible depending on the pair combination. In all cases snow white fry should be 25%, but there will be more crossed heterozygous individuals, some pigeon fry (both hetero and homo are possible depending on parent combination), and some brown/turk type fry as well, again depending on parent combination.

Whew, i need a coffee after that. Hope that makes sense and helps you out. Could be a very exciting cross.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:40 AM   #12
wllm33
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once the eggs laid, cannot move the pair.
so no choice leave the pair, and take the others out.
but once u disturb the tank, chances are the eggs will be eaten up.
got to try again , and this is a common think with discus.
good luck
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:28 AM   #13
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I believe you should see some wrigglers now. I am counting from the date of ur post (egg laid) to be about 3-4 days old.

If so, pls keep the pair in its original setup. High possibility for the wrigglers to die.
Just hope the pair is able to find the young.

Otherwise ( eggs eaten or wrigglers die), I suggest u move the pair to an empty tank for the next breeding attempt. Typically from 2-6 weeks, depending on pairs.
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Old 11-02-2013, 10:08 PM   #14
WaveSurfer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wllm33 View Post
once the eggs laid, cannot move the pair.
so no choice leave the pair, and take the others out.
but once u disturb the tank, chances are the eggs will be eaten up.
got to try again , and this is a common think with discus.
good luck
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuang View Post
I believe you should see some wrigglers now. I am counting from the date of ur post (egg laid) to be about 3-4 days old.

If so, pls keep the pair in its original setup. High possibility for the wrigglers to die.
Just hope the pair is able to find the young.

Otherwise ( eggs eaten or wrigglers die), I suggest u move the pair to an empty tank for the next breeding attempt. Typically from 2-6 weeks, depending on pairs.
Thanks for the comments!

When I returned home on Thursday evening (7th Feb), the eggs were indeed all gone, and I thought it was gone case for all the wrigglers again.

Then while I was vacuuming the substrate, I suddenly noticed something darting around in the carpet plants, and realised there was a few fry swimming amongst the plants! There was actually three survivers! I then moved the mollies out of the tank and during the weekend, they started going to the surface, totally nonchalant of the other fishes. Their parents noticed them but would not eat them up. The fry didn't attach to them either.



Then yesterday, the parents spawned again, this time on the EHEIM inlet pipe, just like the previous couple did. Caught me by surprise as I didn't know they could spawn so quickly again.



After thinking through, since we have limited space and tanks, we will just let nature takes its course in the main tank in terms of breeding, while I continue to focus my attention on growing out the other three smaller discus first.

Will keep you guys updated again!
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Old 12-02-2013, 10:31 AM   #15
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Any close up picture of the fries? I have a feeling that they are not discus fries, probaly its mollies or swordtails.
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:33 PM   #16
WaveSurfer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozone View Post
Any close up picture of the fries? I have a feeling that they are not discus fries, probaly its mollies or swordtails.
Oh you have a point there! They could indeed be mollies fry!

Will try to take a close-up photo...
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Old 16-02-2013, 06:28 PM   #17
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Some updates: (by the way, the fry are indeed mollies')

The discus pair had their 3rd spawn on another part of the driftwood (hidden from front view) and while I was wondering whether they had already laid their eggs etc ('cos can't see clearly due to the angle), I noticed some wrigglers floating around with the parents quickly sucking them in with their mouths.



Fortunately I had bought two pieces of acrylic separators from a LFS and so I quickly placed them in to separate all the fishes, so that the wrigglers won't be eaten up again by them.



Hopefully the fry will grow up better now, especially in a planted tank where food for fry is in abundance(?).

Can bros here advise what do I need to take note and do next? Thanks!
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Old 16-02-2013, 11:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveSurfer View Post
Some updates: (by the way, the fry are indeed mollies')

The discus pair had their 3rd spawn on another part of the driftwood (hidden from front view) and while I was wondering whether they had already laid their eggs etc ('cos can't see clearly due to the angle), I noticed some wrigglers floating around with the parents quickly sucking them in with their mouths.



Fortunately I had bought two pieces of acrylic separators from a LFS and so I quickly placed them in to separate all the fishes, so that the wrigglers won't be eaten up again by them.



Hopefully the fry will grow up better now, especially in a planted tank where food for fry is in abundance(?).

Can bros here advise what do I need to take note and do next? Thanks!

Bro i think you better let nature takes its course than to separate them...

Its natural for parents to look after their offsprings...

If they were to eat them there must be something wrong if they did that...
either water, frightened or other reasons...

the offsprings will need to locate their parents to feed off their slime...
the parents will tend to them.
Dun worry too much... train them to be good parents... or maybe by nature they are already good ones!
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Old 16-02-2013, 11:49 PM   #19
WaveSurfer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterFish View Post
Bro i think you better let nature takes its course than to separate them...

Its natural for parents to look after their offsprings...

If they were to eat them there must be something wrong if they did that...
either water, frightened or other reasons...

the offsprings will need to locate their parents to feed off their slime...
the parents will tend to them.
Dun worry too much... train them to be good parents... or maybe by nature they are already good ones!
I think you misunderstood on the separation... I separated the discus AND fry from the other fishes (Cory, SAE, Loaches, Gaara) so that they won't eat up the fry.

The fry are all still taken care by their parents at the left side of the tank.
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Old 17-02-2013, 12:10 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveSurfer View Post
I think you misunderstood on the separation... I separated the discus AND fry from the other fishes (Cory, SAE, Loaches, Gaara) so that they won't eat up the fry.

The fry are all still taken care by their parents at the left side of the tank.

OIC.

shall wait and see then.
maybe should try to raise some BBS soon... just to assist the parents on feeding after they are free swimming for 3 days...

Now also to hope when wrigglers become free swimming, they can attach to their parents and feed on their slime.
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