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Old 31-01-2005, 11:41 AM   #11
losmandy
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Ask someone who has just adquate skimmer and who's tank get wipped out by some snails spawning :P

The same person has since upgraded to a beckett skimmer and no problems with snails spawning so far.

If there is a dead fish then don't even need to talk abt it.
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Old 31-01-2005, 11:49 AM   #12
roidan
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yeah..with his previous skimmer, his nitrates level were already quite significant (signs of inadequate skimming), so what happened was his snails spawned and the skimmer could not remove enough waste in time...this waste spilled over to the conversion process, faced a large spike and tada....
crashed tank.

if he had a skimmer that could handle excess load, the spawning stuff would be removed and less spillover into the conversion process...but well, glad he has changed to a better skimmer now. ( a miniature beckett if i am not wrong)

It is always a judgement of how much extra capacity you need for your own system. be it skimming, cooling, electrical fuses......

But some just have better judgement than others
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Old 31-01-2005, 01:33 PM   #13
nim75sg
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There is no right or wrong answers to overskimming .. just different schools of thoughts. Irrespective we just got to be street smart and not text-book smart

Also whoever that reefer upgraded to a mini-beckett (if you're correct), I am sure any good skimmer will do the job irrespective of whether it is a aspirating needle wheel or beckett.

Sorry me not a Beckett lover ... I just know that whichever design is better than the other technology is not important as long as it is able to give good skimmate.

Because I always bear in mind that popular does not always mean effective ...

What is most important is that a better designed skimmer requires less maintenance, gives good skimmate and the bottom line at the end of the each day, each week and each month is how lmuch pollution/skimmate was removed.

It makes no or little difference to the system if it takes you daily adjustments of a skimmer or once monthly adjustments to collect the same amount of skimate .... the net benefits of nutrient export or cleanning up is the same for both methods.

Likewise, some reefers enjoy "tuning" the skimmer whereas others favor the automatic approach. So which is better?

Again, either methods give the same result and must comment that there is no "perfect" skimmer.

Time for lunch ...
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Old 31-01-2005, 01:49 PM   #14
roidan
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yup, precisely it comes to a personal choice whether want would want to overskim for his purpose or not. One may find no point creating a nutrient free environment when organisms in his tank prefer just exactly the opposite. (other than the excess buffer issue) It is a matter of individual preference. Some like living on the edge, some prefer to play it safe by having excess capacity to meet emergencies

Just like i prefer to remove both bad and good things quickly from the water column, rather than worry about chronic overskimming and leave the good things as well as the bad things in the water column and tempting fate should massive chain reaction happens.

Some who worry about overskimming will rather underskim and have more eventual nitrates and then tackling their nitrates via denitrators or other methods. For me, I rather stop nitrates at the root via aggressive skimming and not worry how to deal with significant residual nitrates further down the chain

of coz as long it is a better upgrade from his previous skimmer, whether it is a needlewheel, spray injection, venturi/mazzei/beckett or even within the same product line but the next higher models, it will do the job much better and there will no longer be snail-spawning tank crashes but i just state as a matter of fact that he switched to a miniature beckett just for the record

I have used needlewheels, sprays, venturis/becketts and i know and appreciate the benefits and flaws of each method....and even within the same methods, there are a large variance of results/effectiveness in terms of how the *technology* is used. This little experience of mine with skimmers sure beats opinions of those who only tried a particular method (or limited range) And i am not saying beckett is the best or needlewheel is the best. I can only say that my beckett is serving my system very well, just like other methods are serving other systems very well too Just that in my context and application, i have gone through changing skimmers, trial and error, only to stop currently at beckett whereby others have failed to satisfy my application demands. Just like some of you probably have also gone through becketts and other methods, and finally stopping currently at needlewheel method

popular surely does not mean effective i agree, reefers can follow trends but ultimately, it comes back to how the reefer have a feel on his system and uses the appropriate equipment. No point having the best equipment but the system is out of whack. Like i said earlier, alot depends on judgement and some just have better judgement than others. It's always a balance between the human touch and equipment, be it reefing or other aspects
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Old 31-01-2005, 03:06 PM   #15
spsman
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Default oh roidan thks hor

Quote:
Originally Posted by roidan
manufacturers do not just make one size because there are different budgets for different people. Not only in terms of the upfront cost of the chiller, but also the running cost. One may get a chiller just just barely adequate for his system with everything taken into consideration including MHs but when the temperature soars during the hot months, the chiller will be overworked and this runs into hours and hours of operation without stoppage. And you should have realised by now, manufacturers only give a guide, but not definitive runtime.

Chiller X say it is rated up to 200gallons, Chiller Y says that it is rated up to 300gallons. Chiller X run 12 hours to keep the 200gallons at set temperature whereas Chiller Y runs 6 hours to keep the same 200gallons at same set temperature. So if one run chiller X for 12 hours and he feels that running the next higher model will result in less hours and less overall consumption despite higher amperage, he is well advised to go for the higher model as in sudden hot spells like i have mentioned , the chiller is still able to cool the system in a decent number of hours. Some so called adequate chillers during hot spells seem to run without stoppage. So it is no longer an issue about just factoring the bare essentials, but you got to give equipment safety factor which is already technically stepping into the oversizing region.

As for skimmers, it depends on how oversized the skimmer is for it to handle emergencies. If in normal circumstances and there are already considerable nitrate levels, this just goes to show that the skimmer could not capture most of the waste before it starts to break down finally into nitrates and even the denitrifying portion of the system eg. dsb, LRs, denitrator...... cannot handle and thus there are residual nitrates in the system.

if in normal circumstances and the skimmer is upgraded till you see the nitrates falling to near testkit-undetectable levels, ceteris paribus, this means that the skimmer has improved alot in capturing the wastes before it breaks down into final nitrates form and even if some wastes escaped the skimming process, the denitrifying portion of the system was able to cope with the conversion. But at this level of skimming, considerable wastes still escaped the skimmer but fortunately, the denitrifying portion was up to the job for nitrate conversion that is why we read near undetectable levels. But if you use lab accurate equipment, there will be still nitrate levels.

Finally as you go even larger, even more waste will be captured by the skimmer before it breaks down. This will deprive the denitrifying portion of nitrates and thus superlow levels and if you aim for a very nutrient free system, this is what you have achieved. But of cos if you aim for a nutrient adequate system, you do not have to go this far. But at this level of skimming, there is so little residual waste that escaped the skimmer that in event of sudden dieoffs, the skimmer will pick up so much waste before the waste has a chance to turn into the toxic ammonia/nitrite spike that is the start of the vicious cycle that will wipe out the tank.

remember, in sudden increase of waste, bacteria populations do not reproduce fast enough to convert the toxic ammonia further to nitrites and nitrates...and by the time the bacteria population copes, more and more organisms would have died and this comes back to the vicious cycle again.

So only an oversized skimmer will be able to stop disaster as its first stage of manifestation: crude waste level

getting an adequate or the next rated skimmer is just to handle things well during normal circumstances but in emergencies or peak demand, they will not cope and one can only hope the ammonia and nitrite toxicity will not impact so much. Why leave things to hope when you can stop disaster at the waste level

skimmer ratings are again a guide....nitrates is one easy way to see if a particular skimmer is up to the job for your system or not.

if there are still obvious levels of nitrate, this skimmer is simply not adequate despite its humongous rating figures. but if you are aiming for a nutrient rich environment for some corals, you have achieved what you want.

if there are low/undetectable levels of nitrate, the skimmer is adequate for the system combined with the denitrifying portion of your system. This is probably just right for those who want a relatively nutrient free environment.

yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
thks for writing such a long article on skimming. this shud be posted at the general section where newbies can learn what is skimming about.

In summary, u have already acknowledged the points i stated and u are simply performing a rhetoric.

However, i noted that the topic could be sized into efficiency again. becos u have mentioned that waste removal b4 it breaks down.
I think all skimmers want to achieve that. In fact, i have already stated that it depends on what u are keeping and trying to achieve.

The question was oversizing and the meaning of skimming.
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Old 31-01-2005, 03:10 PM   #16
spsman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roidan
yeah..with his previous skimmer, his nitrates level were already quite significant (signs of inadequate skimming), so what happened was his snails spawned and the skimmer could not remove enough waste in time...this waste spilled over to the conversion process, faced a large spike and tada....
crashed tank.

if he had a skimmer that could handle excess load, the spawning stuff would be removed and less spillover into the conversion process...but well, glad he has changed to a better skimmer now. ( a miniature beckett if i am not wrong)

It is always a judgement of how much extra capacity you need for your own system. be it skimming, cooling, electrical fuses......

But some just have better judgement than others
This example is common. someone upgraded form a weipro to hns and it was able to handle the bioload. The question is what is the size of the skimmer?
does it need to be oversized?
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Old 31-01-2005, 03:15 PM   #17
spsman
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Default aiyoyo

Quote:
Originally Posted by devilfire
'

wat an example!! tat's a good one, totally out of context...




could u kindly elaborate how on earth will oni driving a ferarri at 80km/h will ruin its engine?
pls enlighten. thanks.

u cant quote a ferrari as its speed is variable, tat is, u can control the speed.

again, out of context.
bro, why dun u say that the driver is a variable then.... becos some drivers are better than others. maybe its the driver's fault. i already stated that 80km/h is the speed.

sorry bro, really dunno how to communicate w u. paiseh
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Old 31-01-2005, 03:37 PM   #18
losmandy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsman
This example is common. someone upgraded form a weipro to hns and it was able to handle the bioload. The question is what is the size of the skimmer?
does it need to be oversized?
Skimmer brands and method/technoloy aside.

For my post I use a properly designed skimmer that is properly rated.

Oversized or not is very subjective. The question now is how you rate your skimmer for your reef tank?

"size" in this thread refers to efficiency of the skimmer you can compare a macro 2x the size of a H&S and I bet that the H&S will work and skim better.

With a properly rated skimmer it should already remove most of the DOCs before it has a chance to break down and eventually convert into NO3. The residue NO3 should be handled by other filtration like your DSB/LR/algae. What happens when you have a particular skimmer running yet your NO3 is getting higher and higher, it means that your bioload is too high. Either reduce your bioload or get a larger skimmer.

Having a slightly larger skimmer just gives you the assurance that in the event of any spike the skimmer will be able to handle the extra load instead of causing a chain effect. At the end a tank crash because someone had died in the tank or something spawn in the tank. Just read around the forum and you'll find reasons for tank crash, something die/spawn and that cause chain reaction and end up everything died. Check out the skimmer they are using, mostly "small" skimmer (relative) to the bioload.

Why worry about trace elements? Weekly water changes are good husbandry. Not only that replaces the trace elements but also removes some toxics that accumulates in the system.
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Old 31-01-2005, 03:53 PM   #19
spsman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsman
thks for writing such a long article on skimming. this shud be posted at the general section where newbies can learn what is skimming about.

In summary, u have already acknowledged the points i stated and u are simply performing a rhetoric.

However, i noted that the topic could be sized into efficiency again. becos u have mentioned that waste removal b4 it breaks down.
I think all skimmers want to achieve that. In fact, i have already stated that it depends on what u are keeping and trying to achieve.

The question was oversizing and the meaning of skimming.
the qn was oversizing and not the meaning of skimming. typo error
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Old 31-01-2005, 03:55 PM   #20
roidan
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Oversizing brings about an increase in performance, especially in the same method of skimming. But whether does the reefer want to oversize or not becomes a personal choice like what we mentioned.

For you, there may not be a need to oversize, but for others, there is a need to oversize to create a safety buffer.

If the potential load of your system is not critical enough when things start dying off, oversizing benefits are not as obvious as one who has a very high potential load should things take a turn for the worst.

So to answer if a skimmer needs to be oversized, it comes back to a personal choice and also personal application. The benefits of oversizing are obviously there despite drawbacks like higher cost....using what is more than necessary in normal day-to-day operations..... just like the benefits of undersizing or maintain just-adequate levels are less cost, not aggresively stripping the water of good substances but the drawbacks are that it cannot expand its perfomance when emergencies arise and so on.

bottomline comes back to what a reefer feel is more important for himself
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