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View Poll Results: Would you like a stingray species forum?
yes please! 63 94.03%
No thanks, don't need one. 4 5.97%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 29-07-2010, 03:59 PM   #21
dave6238
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The FH Craze about 10 years ago was a once-off n will nvr be repeated. Last time pple were stupid, more gullible n too superstitious. Nowadays they are alot smarter n more knowledgeable about fishes....
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Old 29-07-2010, 04:06 PM   #22
RELAX
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Originally Posted by jwhtan View Post
Let me just share my concerns.

Rays are not cheap. It costs quite a fair bit.

The traders will be out in force. We must be prepared for more dispute threads. I know we can all mention caveat emptor but as u all also know, AF prides itself on being a community and I'll like it to still be this way instead of every man for himself.

The sp. issue will never be settled. It'll be a case of somewhere along the line has some PDR genes and that's a PDRsp. This will go on forever. There'll be claims and counter claims. I dunno whether we'll be richer or poorer for it.

Should we proceed with this, I'll like to ask the ray community to take a more active role in educating and also weeding out unethical sellers. U can say all u want abt why having this is good, but if u sit on the fence when an issue is at hand, then this will not work.

I just want to remind the community that this is for you, the section is for u. And should u want this, then u must help us to look after this.
actually the above concern is very real.many a times some bro here will mms you pic the ray they interested,and ask for your opinion.because the seller cannot or not convenient to post here in buy/sell due whatever reason,..
if we lift the rules,seller probably will hv no choice but to post pic in the open and under the watchful eyes from all the rayfanatic here,that will more or less eradicate unwanted so called breeder(fly by day trader,that dont even know what species they are selling,but anyhow claim)

-to me is seller pls say dont know, if dont know,buyer buy as per what you see and how much you willing to pay what is infront of you
-seller hv detailed proof of bloodline,then sell as per what you can backup.

in the end,i find that open up the forum and rule hv more advantages bec information is more readily available
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Old 29-07-2010, 04:11 PM   #23
Gigas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhtan View Post
Let me just share my concerns.

Rays are not cheap. It costs quite a fair bit.

The traders will be out in force. We must be prepared for more dispute threads. I know we can all mention caveat emptor but as u all also know, AF prides itself on being a community and I'll like it to still be this way instead of every man for himself.

The sp. issue will never be settled. It'll be a case of somewhere along the line has some PDR genes and that's a PDRsp. This will go on forever. There'll be claims and counter claims. I dunno whether we'll be richer or poorer for it.

Should we proceed with this, I'll like to ask the ray community to take a more active role in educating and also weeding out unethical sellers. U can say all u want abt why having this is good, but if u sit on the fence when an issue is at hand, then this will not work.

I just want to remind the community that this is for you, the section is for u. And should u want this, then u must help us to look after this.
John...very valid points and concerns. For AF to take on the role of policing the trade is IMHO, next to impossible. This is a product and a live one at that...how do you guarantee parentage, quality and if it lives or dies at the hands of the buyers...how can this be an AF responsibility?

It is really at the higher end of the hobby that is creating concern...the black rays and its variants...and this community is the more mature one normally. It is almost like aros....buy fish and not cert...willing buyer and seller. If u spot a great deal and the fish don't turn out right...who can you blame for your own greediness. I bargain as hard as the next man but you have to respect the trade...somebody has to make a profit.

I agree with you that this is a community and it is thanks to AF that we have one in the 1st place....and I really hope that self governance will kick in and keep it a healthy one
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Old 29-07-2010, 04:11 PM   #24
jwhtan
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Originally Posted by RELAX View Post
.

in the end,i find that open up the forum and rule hv more advantages bec information is more readily available
I understand. And that's why I am requesting that the ray community must not sit on the fence when an issue arises. Only when people post and point out whatever discrepancies they see, then only will it be education.

If we laugh behind and say ".. hahahah .... those are chapalang mix until xyz liao ..... and that noob still go and buy ..... hahahahhaha .." ... then it will not help at all.
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Old 29-07-2010, 04:15 PM   #25
jwhtan
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Originally Posted by Gigas View Post
For AF to take on the role of policing the trade is IMHO, next to impossible. This is a product and a live one at that...how do you guarantee parentage, quality and if it lives or dies at the hands of the buyers...how can this be an AF responsibility?


I agree with you that this is a community and it is thanks to AF that we have one in the 1st place....and I really hope that self governance will kick in and keep it a healthy one
Yup ..... we all realise policing the trade is impossible. We need self governance. We need the active forumers to not sit on the fence.

I am all for opening up as long as the community wants it that way.
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Old 29-07-2010, 04:27 PM   #26
cavallino
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Originally Posted by enghai View Post

In the end, all the neglected (and out of fashion) FHs get throw into reservoirs and ponds.

I am voting "No" as such predator fish need more experience hobbyist to keep them. It either the rays will disrupted the eco system in our reservoirs/ponds or some noobies hobbyist will be hurt by the ray, say got strike in the eyes...

I do take in your feedback with thanks. You have raised valid concerns.

If you would humor me for a bit, let me explain some of the thoughts behind this move.

I believe that with or without Arofanatics, ray trading exists.

Personally, I feel it is counter- intuitive to believe that these animals that cost us few hundreds to several thousands are dumped into our reservoirs by hobbyists. I have my personal theory about how those rays enter our system, but thatís for another day.

Anyway, if you believe dumping takes place, then, like trading, it takes place with or without Arofanatics.

When legitimate avenues for trade are taken away, these activities are simply driven further underground, which in my mind, have two negative implications:

1) Animals that are unable to find homes through underground channels suffer, ironically increasing the likelihood of dumping. i.e. the market is not allowed to perform the role of distribution.

2) Asymmetric information is amplified owing to a lack of transparent information flow, which would lead to amplification in price distortions. Fraudulent sales would be more rampant. i.e. the market is not allowed to perform the role of price discovery and determination.

Arofanatics seeks to address these two issues by reinstating the marketís distribution and price determination mechanisms.

But it doesnít end there.

Say as a licensed exporter, I receive an order from HK for 10 motoros, but I only have 5 motoros and 1 sakura on hand. I can now go into AF buy/sell, buy 3 motoros from marshy, and trade my sakura for 2 of jwhtanís motoros.

The marketplace would thus allow breeders, stockists and exporters to organize themselves, and conduct the full spectrum of aggregation and optimization activities for export. Helping the animals access the export channels as efficiently as possible also helps to curb dumping.

The stingray species forum serves multiple functions too. Offhand, Iíll name three.

First, it provides the platform to advance the general level of stingray husbandry, thereby enabling and enhancing stockistsí ability to feed into, and support our trade exporters on a sustainable and continuous basis.

Second, it serves as the epicenter for information flow, empowering the community to weed out undesirable and disruptive influences.

Lastly, though not least, it is also kinda fun to talk cock in the forums. Or at least, I believe itíll be a fun forum in the hands of my esteemed colleague- marshy.

Forgive me for launching into such a long post. Thank you for bearing with it.
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Old 29-07-2010, 04:30 PM   #27
laodie
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The problem I forsee self governance is, trade secret. Why? Potential sellers would not want to share and many would just sit on the fence and ler things happen. Like John has mentioned, only when a dispute arises, then we see some answers.
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Old 29-07-2010, 04:39 PM   #28
enghai
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Its all good, no hard feelings, AF open a thread and ask for comments, thus my post. Since I do not know anything about rays, I can only raise my concern with the only memories since the FHs' days.

Such sinister-looking fish will never be my pet ~

Ray is simply a dish (pun intended) found in Hawkers' Centre...
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Old 29-07-2010, 04:41 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enghai View Post
Its all good, no hard feelings,
Ray is simply a dish (pun intended) found in Hawkers' Centre...
none at all!

if chance avails, we should sit down for one! cheers!
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Old 29-07-2010, 05:09 PM   #30
RELAX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enghai View Post
Its all good, no hard feelings, AF open a thread and ask for comments, thus my post. Since I do not know anything about rays, I can only raise my concern with the only memories since the FHs' days.

Such sinister-looking fish will never be my pet ~

Ray is simply a dish (pun intended) found in Hawkers' Centre...
haiz,..weather ray are sinister looking or not is personal preference.
weather you eventually will keep as pet is none of our concern,though i would think you might keep one day.
but the last sentence is really unwarranted.hope you understand
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