Genetic history of present day crossbacks - Page 24

joseph · 24-02-2010, 01:48 AM

XBack and Highback are in fact all of the same breed originally. All are known as Malaysian Gold. The difference is XB is processed through very selective breeding by using only the parent fishes with high shine or crosses on the 6th level for a number of generations to maintain and standardize the strain. Therefore, occasionally, it is bound to have throw-backs in XB. The pure bred XBs normally take 3 to 5 years to have 6th level crossed under ideal environment.

What is the source for these statements? Did the scientists witness these through controlled studies over the generation it took to stabilise the so called xback strain? Citation and scientific papers?

From my earliest memory of a x back when I was a boy in early 80s, xback was already available, and fishshop already knew the difference between a rtg and xback to sell them at different prices. If memory served me right, AVA pioneered aro breeding in the early 80s. Even before that, xback was available.

So, which farm managed to do selective breeding for 8 to 12 yrs before the early 80s, say in 1970 to stabilise the strain of xback?

After so much talk, missiles,and intelletual exchanges, I don't know where we are going from here. Perhaps the subtleness is lost on me.

There are some good facts, some tainted, but some misguided.

What I do know is this:

1)The strain in the early donkey year for xback is very very hard to find now. It is like looking for the mythical "KOTA" puteh for those of you who keeps puteh.

2)The xback are now bred for physical traits demanded by YOU, the hobbysists i.e complete pearls, early cross, full helmut, big finnages etc. These traits were genetically engineered from the early version of xback.

3)Both Sg and Mal sides have their fair share of good xback. What is good or not depends on what you look for. Some like blue base with thin rims, some like thick rims, some like goldbar etc. One thing I can remember is the ultra shine demanded in today's xback is not evidenced in the old version.

4)Overfishing, perhaps pollution etc has decimated the wild xback population to such an extent that wild genes can no longer be introduced on a regular basis. Hence the traits may have changed all these years due to a much cmaller gene pools available. Perhaps this may have caused the farmers to xperiment with cross strain.

5)As a hobbysist myself, it is pointless to talk about what consitute pure strain and what these are, cos in reality we know one thing, noone can tell just by looking at the juvs.

6) Selective breeding is super difficulty in aro, for the simple reason, you never know who the female is. For this alone, I will say BS to any farmer who claim he has a super line of xback. However, I can accept if he say the probability is higher due to track record. I heard in Mal now tank breeding is possible, but i can also imagine that costs would have to go up if you force pair the aro to breed, and may not be successful.

So, in conclusion, we are no better off in search for the mythical confirmed xback strain(whichever one you like), other than spending one wonderful hour disgesting all this.

I still rely on one thing when it comes to this, avoid farm that is high on fanciful advertising and all the pon pee pee names and go back to basic.

Some of you said the right thing: See fish, don;t see cert. One more important thing, know the breeder also. Above all be realistic hor, cos no sure thing, only better odds.

To all the hobbysists out there, allow me to share my one achievement from a Singapore bred red who did the impossible, winning the second price at Aquarama 2005, now who would have thought that possible, cos only Indo are supposed to breed good red

joseph · 24-02-2010, 01:52 AM

Sorry the link to the Singapore bred red: http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=283292

**Ong88** · 24-02-2010, 01:59 AM

Bravo bro Joseph

very enlightened by your post, thanks.

stevieg · 24-02-2010, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ong88

Bravo bro Joseph

very enlightened by your post, thanks.

second that. and thanks for your narrative of Rotty!

sebarau · 24-02-2010, 10:51 AM

very informative post by bro joseph, just need to point out on point no 6, as from my understanding the so called selective breeding is loosely use in arowana breeding by dumping only selected brooders into the same pond. Eg a small farm in Perak only have pure strains of MG in one pond. I do agree that on the point that these pure breed will not entice the current players as it take them at least 1 year to cross and full or with some pearlies..Saw a few pic of these juveniles..but no $$ not buy 1..
Bro Spakase, your experiecee is priceless and much needed in AF especially for newbies like me. Your MG Comm is superb and many will try to follow your step achieve such a comm..

BubbleBubble · 24-02-2010, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ong88

+1
We need you.
Your views are important to newbies like me

Your PG comm is my inspiration to comm when I started.
U r my IDOL bro!

Ha... ong88. He damn geelat one, people who play cichlids especially those hardcore ones very valuable.

And Sebaru, can you name the lao chiaos and tell us abit more about these people, what and how they view and identify which aros comes from which lake?

Get them, or perhaps you have some idea, do up a characterisation of all these possible aros found in the various lakes in Malaysia.

shiokmc · 24-02-2010, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joseph

Sorry the link to the Singapore bred red: http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=283292

Quote:

6) Selective breeding is super difficulty in aro, for the simple reason, you never know who the female is. For this alone, I will say BS to any farmer who claim he has a super line of xback. However, I can accept if he say the probability is higher due to track record. I heard in Mal now tank breeding is possible, but i can also imagine that costs would have to go up if you force pair the aro to breed, and may not be successful.

So, in conclusion, we are no better off in search for the mythical confirmed xback strain(whichever one you like), other than spending one wonderful hour disgesting all this.

I still rely on one thing when it comes to this, avoid farm that is high on fanciful advertising and all the pon pee pee names and go back to basic.

great info & sharing.... lovely narration on your babe... any BOOMZ from Rotty so far?

**Ong88** · 24-02-2010, 11:43 AM

Who is rotty?

shiokmc · 24-02-2010, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ong88

Who is rotty?

his EX
http://arofanatics.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=232

zon · 24-02-2010, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwhtan

For those who are interested in the sciences, research and paper on arowanas, I encourage you to join the AFC event to Qian Hu on the 13 March 2010. Dr Alex Chang will address the issue or any other issue pertaining to DNA that you may have.

agreed with boss. I think will be good if those who want to know the truth about this research paper & the person behind it. Just print out a copy, bring to the upcoming Qian Hu event on 13 Mar & ask Dr Alex Chang's opinion.

24-02-2010, 01:59 AM	#233
Ong88 Prof SK Ong Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 10,641	Bravo bro Joseph very enlightened by your post, thanks. __________________ Just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean it won't be a good time. Use imgur for your photos sharing https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...m.imgur.mobile

24-02-2010, 11:43 AM	#238
Ong88 Prof SK Ong Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 10,641	Who is rotty? __________________ Just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean it won't be a good time. Use imgur for your photos sharing https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...m.imgur.mobile

24-02-2010, 01:48 AM	#231
joseph Arofanatic Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 376	XBack and Highback are in fact all of the same breed originally. All are known as Malaysian Gold. The difference is XB is processed through very selective breeding by using only the parent fishes with high shine or crosses on the 6th level for a number of generations to maintain and standardize the strain. Therefore, occasionally, it is bound to have throw-backs in XB. The pure bred XBs normally take 3 to 5 years to have 6th level crossed under ideal environment. What is the source for these statements? Did the scientists witness these through controlled studies over the generation it took to stabilise the so called xback strain? Citation and scientific papers? From my earliest memory of a x back when I was a boy in early 80s, xback was already available, and fishshop already knew the difference between a rtg and xback to sell them at different prices. If memory served me right, AVA pioneered aro breeding in the early 80s. Even before that, xback was available. So, which farm managed to do selective breeding for 8 to 12 yrs before the early 80s, say in 1970 to stabilise the strain of xback? After so much talk, missiles,and intelletual exchanges, I don't know where we are going from here. Perhaps the subtleness is lost on me. There are some good facts, some tainted, but some misguided. What I do know is this: 1)The strain in the early donkey year for xback is very very hard to find now. It is like looking for the mythical "KOTA" puteh for those of you who keeps puteh. 2)The xback are now bred for physical traits demanded by YOU, the hobbysists i.e complete pearls, early cross, full helmut, big finnages etc. These traits were genetically engineered from the early version of xback. 3)Both Sg and Mal sides have their fair share of good xback. What is good or not depends on what you look for. Some like blue base with thin rims, some like thick rims, some like goldbar etc. One thing I can remember is the ultra shine demanded in today's xback is not evidenced in the old version. 4)Overfishing, perhaps pollution etc has decimated the wild xback population to such an extent that wild genes can no longer be introduced on a regular basis. Hence the traits may have changed all these years due to a much cmaller gene pools available. Perhaps this may have caused the farmers to xperiment with cross strain. 5)As a hobbysist myself, it is pointless to talk about what consitute pure strain and what these are, cos in reality we know one thing, noone can tell just by looking at the juvs. 6) Selective breeding is super difficulty in aro, for the simple reason, you never know who the female is. For this alone, I will say BS to any farmer who claim he has a super line of xback. However, I can accept if he say the probability is higher due to track record. I heard in Mal now tank breeding is possible, but i can also imagine that costs would have to go up if you force pair the aro to breed, and may not be successful. So, in conclusion, we are no better off in search for the mythical confirmed xback strain(whichever one you like), other than spending one wonderful hour disgesting all this. I still rely on one thing when it comes to this, avoid farm that is high on fanciful advertising and all the pon pee pee names and go back to basic. Some of you said the right thing: See fish, don;t see cert. One more important thing, know the breeder also. Above all be realistic hor, cos no sure thing, only better odds. To all the hobbysists out there, allow me to share my one achievement from a Singapore bred red who did the impossible, winning the second price at Aquarama 2005, now who would have thought that possible, cos only Indo are supposed to breed good red

24-02-2010, 01:52 AM	#232
joseph Arofanatic Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 376	Sorry the link to the Singapore bred red: http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=283292

24-02-2010, 10:51 AM	#235
sebarau Dragon Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,096	very informative post by bro joseph, just need to point out on point no 6, as from my understanding the so called selective breeding is loosely use in arowana breeding by dumping only selected brooders into the same pond. Eg a small farm in Perak only have pure strains of MG in one pond. I do agree that on the point that these pure breed will not entice the current players as it take them at least 1 year to cross and full or with some pearlies..Saw a few pic of these juveniles..but no $$ not buy 1.. Bro Spakase, your experiecee is priceless and much needed in AF especially for newbies like me. Your MG Comm is superb and many will try to follow your step achieve such a comm..

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