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-   -   Oversizing Equipments? (http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167520)

roidan 31-01-2005 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roidan
No point having the best DIY or best foreign brand and yet things are not doing well in your system :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spsman
true. some reefers have oversized equipment too. for what? maybe its the trend... ?????

cheerz

oversized equipment always gives an extra buffer before things become critical.

oversized tank gives you more stable water parameters should something goes wrong.

oversized chiller gives you the extra cooling buffer should the ambient temperature soars for no apparent reason.

oversized skimmer gives you the extra loading buffer should you face sudden die-offs that would otherwise sets off a chain reaction that leads to a tankcrash.

so in summary, oversizing gives you the extra cushion rather than just barely meeting the minimum requirements and when the time comes for the real test, the *undersized* or *just-barely-enough* equipment will be the weakest link in your system ;)

devilfire 31-01-2005 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roidan
oversized equipment always gives an extra buffer before things become critical.

oversized tank gives you more stable water parameters should something goes wrong.

oversized chiller gives you the extra cooling buffer should the ambient temperature soars for no apparent reason.

oversized skimmer gives you the extra loading buffer should you face sudden die-offs that would otherwise sets off a chain reaction that leads to a tankcrash.

so in summary, oversizing gives you the extra cushion rather than just barely meeting the minimum requirements and when the time comes for the real test, the *undersized* or *just-barely-enough* equipment will be the weakest link in your system ;)

tis is wat i call knowledge, n tis is wat one lacks. :rolleyes:

decentkid 31-01-2005 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roidan
oversized equipment always gives an extra buffer before things become critical.

oversized tank gives you more stable water parameters should something goes wrong.

oversized chiller gives you the extra cooling buffer should the ambient temperature soars for no apparent reason.

oversized skimmer gives you the extra loading buffer should you face sudden die-offs that would otherwise sets off a chain reaction that leads to a tankcrash.

so in summary, oversizing gives you the extra cushion rather than just barely meeting the minimum requirements and when the time comes for the real test, the *undersized* or *just-barely-enough* equipment will be the weakest link in your system ;)

100% agreed...and those are my reasons for getting oversized stuff...
even if wanna upgrade...still can use back

cheers! :p

ReDDeviLs 31-01-2005 01:59 AM

true man,agree with roidan oversize stuffs allows more errors and less trouble when upgrading.

spsman 31-01-2005 05:34 AM

hmm, tough answer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roidan
oversized equipment always gives an extra buffer before things become critical.

oversized tank gives you more stable water parameters should something goes wrong.

true, thats why nano tanks aren't as simple as it seems.[/B]

oversized chiller gives you the extra cooling buffer should the ambient temperature soars for no apparent reason.

[B]not true. driving a ferarri at 80 km/h will ruin its engine in time to come.
your chiller is suppose to be utilised, thats why there is a recommendation to what hp u shud use for what gallons. at most u just factor in the halides. otherwise why dun the manufacturers just make 1 standard big hp chiller and simply sell it off, since oversizing is good, according to u???


oversized skimmer gives you the extra loading buffer should you face sudden die-offs that would otherwise sets off a chain reaction that leads to a tankcrash.

yes and no. yes, becos in a sudden die off, the water parameters will be affected and skimming is important.
no, becos overskimming does not lead to the tank being safe from crashes.
Tank crashes does not happen all of a sudden. it happens due to cumulative periods of negligence. And to be truthful, there will be signs and indicators before disaster strikes. Unless, u are talking abt the whole tank crashing to the floor, which is of course 'sudden'... otherwise i dun suppose the oversized skimmer can help in prevention at all. sizing the skimmer is relative to the bioload u keep. or maybe the conditions u prefer, for example keeping the sps corals. but truthfully i am impressed by the units situated at coral farm at no.60 lim chu kang lane.


so in summary, oversizing gives you the extra cushion rather than just barely meeting the minimum requirements and when the time comes for the real test, the *undersized* or *just-barely-enough* equipment will be the weakest link in your system ;)

i tried to buy oversized t-shirts when i was 5 years old, becos i wanted to be able to wear it later when i become 12. i looked really dashing....

roidan 31-01-2005 08:39 AM

manufacturers do not just make one size because there are different budgets for different people. Not only in terms of the upfront cost of the chiller, but also the running cost. One may get a chiller just just barely adequate for his system with everything taken into consideration including MHs but when the temperature soars during the hot months, the chiller will be overworked and this runs into hours and hours of operation without stoppage. And you should have realised by now, manufacturers only give a guide, but not definitive runtime.

Chiller X say it is rated up to 200gallons, Chiller Y says that it is rated up to 300gallons. Chiller X run 12 hours to keep the 200gallons at set temperature whereas Chiller Y runs 6 hours to keep the same 200gallons at same set temperature. So if one run chiller X for 12 hours and he feels that running the next higher model will result in less hours and less overall consumption despite higher amperage, he is well advised to go for the higher model as in sudden hot spells like i have mentioned , the chiller is still able to cool the system in a decent number of hours. Some so called adequate chillers during hot spells seem to run without stoppage. So it is no longer an issue about just factoring the bare essentials, but you got to give equipment safety factor which is already technically stepping into the oversizing region.

As for skimmers, it depends on how oversized the skimmer is for it to handle emergencies. If in normal circumstances and there are already considerable nitrate levels, this just goes to show that the skimmer could not capture most of the waste before it starts to break down finally into nitrates and even the denitrifying portion of the system eg. dsb, LRs, denitrator...... cannot handle and thus there are residual nitrates in the system.

if in normal circumstances and the skimmer is upgraded till you see the nitrates falling to near testkit-undetectable levels, ceteris paribus, this means that the skimmer has improved alot in capturing the wastes before it breaks down into final nitrates form and even if some wastes escaped the skimming process, the denitrifying portion of the system was able to cope with the conversion. But at this level of skimming, considerable wastes still escaped the skimmer but fortunately, the denitrifying portion was up to the job for nitrate conversion that is why we read near undetectable levels. But if you use lab accurate equipment, there will be still nitrate levels.

Finally as you go even larger, even more waste will be captured by the skimmer before it breaks down. This will deprive the denitrifying portion of nitrates and thus superlow levels and if you aim for a very nutrient free system, this is what you have achieved. But of cos if you aim for a nutrient adequate system, you do not have to go this far. But at this level of skimming, there is so little residual waste that escaped the skimmer that in event of sudden dieoffs, the skimmer will pick up so much waste before the waste has a chance to turn into the toxic ammonia/nitrite spike that is the start of the vicious cycle that will wipe out the tank.

remember, in sudden increase of waste, bacteria populations do not reproduce fast enough to convert the toxic ammonia further to nitrites and nitrates...and by the time the bacteria population copes, more and more organisms would have died and this comes back to the vicious cycle again.

So only an oversized skimmer will be able to stop disaster as its first stage of manifestation: crude waste level

getting an adequate or the next rated skimmer is just to handle things well during normal circumstances but in emergencies or peak demand, they will not cope and one can only hope the ammonia and nitrite toxicity will not impact so much. Why leave things to hope when you can stop disaster at the waste level ;)

skimmer ratings are again a guide....nitrates is one easy way to see if a particular skimmer is up to the job for your system or not.

if there are still obvious levels of nitrate, this skimmer is simply not adequate despite its humongous rating figures. but if you are aiming for a nutrient rich environment for some corals, you have achieved what you want.

if there are low/undetectable levels of nitrate, the skimmer is adequate for the system combined with the denitrifying portion of your system. This is probably just right for those who want a relatively nutrient free environment.

yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn :)

devilfire 31-01-2005 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spsman
bro, i dunno how to answer your qn. tougher than writing a thesis.
.

cant u tell the question was sent out to tease u? :p

while u prefer u pay 4 skimmer wif quality material, others perfer 2 pay for skimmer wif better performance..

naive???? :rolleyes:

devilfire 31-01-2005 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spsman
i tried to buy oversized t-shirts when i was 5 years old, becos i wanted to be able to wear it later when i become 12. i looked really dashing....

'

wat an example!! tat's a good one, totally out of context... :D


Quote:

Originally Posted by spsman
driving a ferarri at 80 km/h will ruin its engine in time to come.

could u kindly elaborate how on earth will oni driving a ferarri at 80km/h will ruin its engine? :rolleyes:
pls enlighten. thanks. :D

u cant quote a ferrari as its speed is variable, tat is, u can control the speed.

again, out of context. :rolleyes:

nim75sg 31-01-2005 10:46 AM

Excuse me, there is much discussion at this present time as to the effects of over skimming and imo, there are no good answers as there are two schools of thoughts.

All protein skimmers remove waste, they also remove a great deal of trace elements required by occupants in the tank besides preventing a drop in the water quality.

So how much do you want to replace those trace elements depends on how much you want to skim?

So the more you overskim, the more dollars you need to replenish those lost elements and liquid food for your corals.

So the question, which school do you belongs to ie skim or overskim ;)

roidan 31-01-2005 11:04 AM

that is why it depends on the environment you are trying to duplicate in the tank..whether is it nutrient rich that u are striving for? or are u striving for nutrient free water.

They are at both ends of the spectrum. If one is aiming to keep his nitrates at 20-30ppm region and he buys a skimmer that brought eventual nitrates to 10-20ppm...then he is overskimming in his context already.

If one is aiming to keep his nitrates as low as possible....overskimming is only possible when even lab grade equipment gives an absence level of nitrates or but this would be hard to achieve even with large size skimmers...

and for the safety factor/buffer that i am talking about earlier, if one already has a skimmer and system in place that gives him low or test-kit undetectable nitrates, he is in the adequate zone that many reefers want.

How much more safety factor depends on the potential load of the system when disaster start to manifest, if the existing tank is in low/undetectable nitrates level with very very low bioload, he does not need a large buffer because in event of die-offs, eventual load will not be too critical compared to an existing tank in low/undetectable nitrates level but yet has huge livestock and the quantity of livestock. In event of die-offs, the skimmer has to cope with the increase of waste before it has a chance of further breaking down into ammonia. In such heavy systems, there is a need for a large buffer....

in other words, if the skimmer is not removing waste fast enough, the bulk of the waste will be thrown into the conversion process and the toxic ammonia/nitrite spike is what we do not want.

Thus, we are not only looking for a skimmer that can cope with current day-to-day operations, but also have excess capacity to remove waste in demand situations. How much excess capacity one needs will depend on what he has in his system currently.

Just like 2 identical systems. Everything is identical except skimmers....throw in a dead fish of suitable size and you can tell the difference. the one with the inadequate skimmer will try to remove as much as it can, but there are alot more residual wastes that will lead to the ammonia spike that triggers off a chain reaction.

The other with an oversized skimmer will also remove as much as it can, but more wastes are removed compared to the earlier one and if this oversized skimmer is good enough to handle the dying matter, the system will undergo less spike and the chances of system recovery by itself is much higher....

and furthermore, some skimmers have the option/ability to operate at a less efficient/powerful level and you can basically adjust the level of skimming aggresiveness if you find that you do not want to overskim for your context. But when you are using an inadequate or just-made-the-mark skimmer, it is difficult to increase the skimming performance substantially immediately.

of coz overskimming has the effect of removing trace/medication/useful elements very fast as well. So it boils down finally to whether you try to keep as much useful things in the water as possible together with the harmful things still lingering in the water...or you try to remove both harmful and sadly, useful things as quickly also but knowing you can add useful things by yourself.

for me, i would rather opt for the fast removal of bad/good things and then add back the good things ....rather than the slow removal of bad/good things that the bad portion may actually wipe out the whole system in times of crisis ;)

it is always a choice reefers have to make. Some like living on the edge with everything on the adequate or can-do level. But some prefer to play it much safer with safety buffer. :D


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