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-   -   101 guide to Tanning Regime (http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204283)

kagemaru 22-09-2005 03:04 PM

101 guide to Tanning Regime
 
Due to the frequent PMs I received in the mailbox, I decided to put together all the various bits and pieces for the good of the community:

Part 1: The Beginning of a New Start


Conditioning - it would be best to add some K leaves into the tank and increase the lighting intensity gradually over the days...users could use 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 / 24 hrs intervals as a guiding point

Slime Coat Observation - Slime coat is a physical marker for tanning users to observe the stress level of the reds in the tanning process...if users notice a substantial loss of slime coat, its best to add in some aloe vera extract or epsom salt in terms of restoring the protective coating for the reds

Part 2: The When, Where, What and How to go about Tanning

Size suitable for tanning - there is no specific sizes which is the minimum or maximum age for tanning. As long as there is a sign for blushing of colors can be observed on the red, it is deemed to be suitable for tanning.

Position and angle of lights - the recommended position and angle of tanning lights is at the front of the tank, about 5cm under water...or the best level to place the light is the zone where the red frequently swims

Types of tanning lights to use - there are various lights tat can be utilise for the purpose of tanning...namely to mention a few: Arcadia D3, PL lights, Dennerle plant tubes, T5HO and Metal Halide sets. Primarily it would be advisable to start with a PL light set as it is not too intense as the last few lights mentioned...

Part 3: Push up and Hold Up the colors

Push up colors - if the process of Identifying the color blush stage is accurate, tanning will enhance the process and quicken the process of coloration fill up...Fast or slow depends on the spectrum and intensity of tubes used

Hold Up of colors - Tanning is a stimulating process for the reds to enhance production of chromatophores...in layers and in terms of intensity...it is making use of the concept of contrasting...ie. it makes the base colors of the red intensity hence enabling the better distinction between the rim color and the scale base...Tanning process must not be abruptly halt or else users may see the immediate fade of the colors which was "pushed up" previously...all things being equal...it has to be slowed down and reduce in intensity until finally back to the use of normal room light to ensure the proper acclimatising and stablising of colors

Part 4: Frequent Encounters of problems if technique is used wrongly

Slant swimming posture - If the red is not accustomed to the lights to be used, users may observed their red swimming in a slant manner...the only way to counter this measure is to put a light tube at the back of the tank shinning front to make the two sides of the aro gets even lighting

Cloudy Eyes - this is one of the comments passed by a user, personally during my experiment with >10 pcs of reds altogether, it has never occurred. The primary assumptions which users must establish is to have Good water parameters. Cloudy eyes generally is associated with physical scratches or bad water conditions

Appetite Loss - This again has to do with the way the users acclimatise their reds to the tanning regime...if suddenly intensified lights are shone at them, weak-hearted reds will display stress and lose their appetite altogether

Blind?? - This is one of the commonly asked question with regards to the tanning regime...please bear in mind fish sleep with their eyes open...internally there would be filters to block off the excessive lights which may damaged their "cornea" (if they have one - sorry I am not a biologist cannot confirm on the cornea thingy)...up to date I have tested with various light set not exceeding 10,000 lumens equivalent of brightness, going beyond tat range I cannot guarantee safety...the general mkt equipment of PL, T8, T5 all falls below tat marking

kagemaru 22-09-2005 03:11 PM

Part 5: Additives and special tools

Ketapang leaves - these are needed in terms of the initial kick start process as the tanins within the leaves will slowly emit and allow the readjustment of the water parameters to one tat favours the reds

S7 - commonly used in the planted community together with TR7 so as to provide trace elements in the enclosed tank. This is also common with those trying to enhance the appetite of the reds (reds being picky eaters will be choosy and temperaments changes as they grow)

Bubbles - is used as general guide on how the tank water fares...too much foam on the water level is an indicative sign of potentially bad water...suspended sediments or particles likewise

Epsom Salt - Initial clinical use is to assist the fish to clear their stomach...it is also helpful in regeneration of slim coat on the scales...should not be used excessively...only when there are suspected "dryness" on the scales observed

kagemaru 22-09-2005 03:22 PM

Part 6: Myths and Fairy Tales

Color in 1 day?? - this is one of most tricky part of tanning which many would swear and curse...cos some would see their red deepening in terms of 1 week or 2 weeks or some in 3 mths no effect even when they are doing the same thing

the general rule of thumb as observed from the tanning experiment, a "normal" SR should come in color within 3 weeks...excluding the time u need to recondition the red if it was in a bad water parameters and ur current tank settings is one tat varies from day to day

If someone tells u they can push color in a day, they are playing with timing...cos one red tat shows sporadic coloration (spots along the rims of their scales) is easier to push than one tat is super whitish in base and scale

the tanning lights merely helps to PUSH out the color, the chromatophores is already existing there to be expounded on

Turn Red after tanning? - I have started tanning experiment in aid to give those so called Cannot Make It reds...its not a magical trick or Photoshop tactics

What tanning done is to amplify the melanophores (black pigments) on the scales making whatever light yellow to dark yellow, light orange to dark orange, light pink to dark pink...tats about all tanning can do in a stage of color blooming...if u want to transcend one level of colors, u must attack the scales when it is of the right timing...

The More the Better? - many users seem to think tat by adding as many light as possible infront of the red will make them red faster...in the contrary, this makes the red very jumpy and overly stressed up...In the end it will slow down the process...same logic in weights training, train with more weights doesnt guarantee powerful pecs if done in the slipslod manner

An Old saying,

there were 3 types of ppl
those who make things happened
those who see things happened
those who ask wat happened?

My theory is:

there were 3 kinds of red
those red tat no need light Can Make it
those red tat NEED Light to Make it
those red whose Owners think they CANNOT MAKE IT

jwhtan 22-09-2005 03:36 PM

I'll shift this to the aro FAQ section when the thread is done. To make easier reading, I'll then have to individually delete the lot of " thank you " postings ... it'll help if these are minimised and if there are questions or views relating to the thread, then it shd be asked now so that members can share their experience... of cos, views not agreeing to any statements are also welcomed but pls back it with reasoning

kagemaru 22-09-2005 03:36 PM

Part 7: Water and its relation with reds

What is considered good water?

Water surface - no accumulation of bubbles at the water mark

In the water - no suspended particle

or in more scientific terms TDS readings....ORP readings could be used as a basic gauge for ur water parameters

Water circulation - A good gauge of the water circulation or flow should be observed by looking out for blind spots or dead spots...a space which water is stagnant is not beneficial for the reds although too much agitation of the water surface is also not recommeded

Filtration basis - Biological should be the primary concerns for reds as it is curcial for the bacteria colony to be able to handle the bioload without the need of too frequent water changes...too much changes to the overall water parameters stressed up the reds and impede the coloration cycle

Sometimes doesnt mean we need extremely clean water to keep gd reds, a gd reds being genetically superior will show their color even in a clear tank...the old method of bubble filter if the user is advanced enuff to observe water and tell the condition could be the most potent filter too...esp with the inclusion of sand as part of the filters

Reds is about STABILITY...

Vil 22-09-2005 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagemaru
thks John...

I also quite tired of answering the same question over and over again...

might as well shag one time consolidate all and post...dun say I never share hor;)

any questions from the floor?

when is a right time to stop?

kagemaru 22-09-2005 03:43 PM

Part 8: Secrets of light

Color Warmth

I will say this one time and one time only...mimic the sun is not wat the tanning regime should do

if u want to use sunshine --> 6500k is sufficient but it will take u long time to see the difference or rather not much difference if u are doing it at the wrong timing too

my preferred kelvins is > 10000k tats the range I operating on

Tanning duration:

Tanning is preferably be conducted over a period of 3 weeks minimum with 24 hrs full blast as the prime time zone...the initial startup phase will not be included...the initial phase will only lead the scales to slowly react to the effect of light

Tanning make use of light to stimulate the neurological emission of the color hormones

When to Stop:

The time to stop falls into 2 category:

1. Stress - if the red display too much stress and it has problems with coping with the extreme light...Do stop and go through ur checklist again and see wat needs to be finetune

a. Water? (check ur nitrates...if need wc do a 5%)
b. Timing? (is it the right time?)
c. Feeding? (Am I feeding too much?) Tanning and pumping cannot go hand in hand...there is only so much the red could do in a short span...concentrate on one task before trying to multitask the poor bugger

2. Enuff is Enuff - there is only so much to do to a specific level of color, there is an end to the tanning capability to push the colors...If users observe tat there are no "new" spots of colors appearing on rims or scales, its time to slowly step down the color intensity

ZhenXiang 22-09-2005 03:45 PM

Tanning process must not be abruptly halt or else users may see the immediate fade of the colors which was "pushed up" previously...all things being equal...it has to be slowed down and reduce in intensity until finally back to the use of normal room light to ensure the proper acclimatising and stablising of colors

Does it means that when we wanted to off the lights at night, i need to reduce the intensity of the light, for example, i'm using pl light to tan, then around 1-2 hrs b4 i off the light, i switch the light to a lower intensity light like FL light set ? Am i interrpreting the correct way ?

Regards

kagemaru 22-09-2005 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZhenXiang
Tanning process must not be abruptly halt or else users may see the immediate fade of the colors which was "pushed up" previously...all things being equal...it has to be slowed down and reduce in intensity until finally back to the use of normal room light to ensure the proper acclimatising and stablising of colors

Does it means that when we wanted to off the lights at night, i need to reduce the intensity of the light, for example, i'm using pl light to tan, then around 1-2 hrs b4 i off the light, i switch the light to a lower intensity light like FL light set ? Am i interrpreting the correct way ?

Regards

yes in a way...even if u use a safety light is sufficient...but please do not totally off the lights and go back to sleep...u will wake up and to ur horror see something not so nice liao;)

paulyeoh 22-09-2005 04:11 PM

Thanks bro kage... I'm sure you're kinda bored answering individual questions from newbies like me. :p :p

So once and for all... thanks!!!

two questions..

does background colour and bottom colour have any effect on tanning??

What about putting a strip of mirror (or reflective) on the background so you get tanning from both sides with one light? Would that work?

kagemaru 22-09-2005 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulyeoh
Thanks bro kage... I'm sure you're kinda bored answering individual questions from newbies like me. :p :p

So once and for all... thanks!!!

two questions..

does background colour and bottom colour have any effect on tanning??

What about putting a strip of mirror (or reflective) on the background so you get tanning from both sides with one light? Would that work?

background color does affect the tanning process or should I rather say the background influences the ability of the red to develop coloration earlier

just like white background are used for XB, black backgrounds are suitable for reds --> dun try RED I using it...not beneficial

pasting a mirror is one thing I never tried but its should be workable --> tats a good suggestion to offset the problem of slant swimming posture

thks man

newbird^ 22-09-2005 04:16 PM

so shifumaru...in a short summary... just make sure water is rite, then can use the correct lights 2 push liow rite? ;)

very informative for noobies like me... :D :o

winkelhock 22-09-2005 04:16 PM

Master u forgot to teach them how to get rid of algae and green water when tanning...

kagemaru 22-09-2005 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkelhock
Master u forgot to teach them how to get rid of algae and green water when tanning...

yes sir!

Like I mentioned earlier,

Algae and green water occurs due to excessive nitrates and nutrients in the water...

solve the problem of overfeeding will solve ur green water problem

normally I feed 80% of normal input amount during tanning experiment...its also better cos reds will not fall sick easily after a spate of rains

kagemaru 22-09-2005 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbird^
so shifumaru...in a short summary... just make sure water is rite, then can use the correct lights 2 push liow rite? ;)

very informative for noobies like me... :D :o

water like Vil said before its crucial...but with just gd water is not sufficient to push the color "artificially"

winkelhock 22-09-2005 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagemaru
yes sir!

Like I mentioned earlier,

Algae and green water occurs due to excessive nitrates and nutrients in the water...

solve the problem of overfeeding will solve ur green water problem

normally I feed 80% of normal input amount during tanning experiment...its also better cos reds will not fall sick easily after a spate of rains


For me i only feed 50% or less each day or else they will always be in daze or laze after feeding.Also to reuduce nutrients to water...

kagemaru 22-09-2005 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkelhock
For me i only feed 50% or less each day or else they will always be in daze or laze after feeding.Also to reuduce nutrients to water...

u just reduce the water agitation and wala...ur color will come back...no need to worry

liquidnoise 22-09-2005 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagemaru
Part 5: Additives and special tools

Ketapang leaves - these are needed in terms of the initial kick start process as the tanins within the leaves will slowly emit and allow the readjustment of the water parameters to one tat favours the reds

S7 - commonly used in the planted community together with TR7 so as to provide trace elements in the enclosed tank. This is also common with those trying to enhance the appetite of the reds (reds being picky eaters will be choosy and temperaments changes as they grow)

Bubbles - is used as general guide on how the tank water fares...too much foam on the water level is an indicative sign of potentially bad water...suspended sediments or particles likewise

Epsom Salt - Initial clinical use is to assist the fish to clear their stomach...it is also helpful in regeneration of slim coat on the scales...should not be used excessively...only when there are suspected "dryness" on the scales observed

I am interested to know why too much bubles indicates bad water? pls teach ooo mighty 1

newbird^ 22-09-2005 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkelhock
I dun even know what is agitation... :o


erm..means ur water must be calm...cannot have like hurricane katrina kinda movements in water and surface. :p

kagemaru 22-09-2005 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidnoise
I am interested to know why too much bubles indicates bad water? pls teach ooo mighty 1


OMG...mai hai wa...

bubbles by itself is just a airbubbles enveloped by the surrounding water...once they reached the surface, it will have no more "coating" from the water to sustain its bubble shape --> this we call the "breaking Up"

if the water is saturated with Total Dissolved Solids, it will become more sticky...just like soapy water used to play bubbles...why the bubbles are able to stretched into a bigger shape by joining one another is the existence of the proteins or "oils" from ur feed...this oil will stretched out and hold the shape

hence when we see the amount of bubbles cumulating, its also meaning ur "dissolved" waste level is increasing

Hope I make it clear in my illustration

winkelhock 22-09-2005 04:31 PM

S7 - commonly used in the planted community together with TR7 so as to provide trace elements in the enclosed tank. This is also common with those trying to enhance the appetite of the reds (reds being picky eaters will be choosy and temperaments changes as they grow)



The above is highly dangerous as it might trigger over surplus nutrients and cause green water overnite.

winkelhock 22-09-2005 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbird^
erm..means ur water must be calm...cannot have like hurricane katrina kinda movements in water and surface. :p


ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh make the water still ah........... :p

kagemaru 22-09-2005 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkelhock
S7 - commonly used in the planted community together with TR7 so as to provide trace elements in the enclosed tank. This is also common with those trying to enhance the appetite of the reds (reds being picky eaters will be choosy and temperaments changes as they grow)



The above is highly dangerous as it might trigger over surplus nutrients and cause green water overnite.

u scare ppl leh...

paiseh...cos the last time my water got skimmed before so need to put back what is taken out...hence I included S7 inside:o

JK88 22-09-2005 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkelhock
S7 - commonly used in the planted community together with TR7 so as to provide trace elements in the enclosed tank. This is also common with those trying to enhance the appetite of the reds (reds being picky eaters will be choosy and temperaments changes as they grow)



The above is highly dangerous as it might trigger over surplus nutrients and cause green water overnite.

& also too much surplus the red also wont eat as much

newbird^ 22-09-2005 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkelhock
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh make the water still ah........... :p

yes...still waters...cannot shoot here shoot there ,spray here spray there

JK88 22-09-2005 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkelhock
S7 - commonly used in the planted community together with TR7 so as to provide trace elements in the enclosed tank. This is also common with those trying to enhance the appetite of the reds (reds being picky eaters will be choosy and temperaments changes as they grow)



The above is highly dangerous as it might trigger over surplus nutrients and cause green water overnite.

& also too much surplus of nutrients the aro also wont eat as much, tried it on gold, dont know applies to red?

liquidnoise 22-09-2005 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagemaru
OMG...mai hai wa...

bubbles by itself is just a airbubbles enveloped by the surrounding water...once they reached the surface, it will have no more "coating" from the water to sustain its bubble shape --> this we call the "breaking Up"

if the water is saturated with Total Dissolved Solids, it will become more sticky...just like soapy water used to play bubbles...why the bubbles are able to stretched into a bigger shape by joining one another is the existence of the proteins or "oils" from ur feed...this oil will stretched out and hold the shape

hence when we see the amount of bubbles cumulating, its also meaning ur "dissolved" waste level is increasing

Hope I make it clear in my illustration

no lah no hai.
Recently I revamp my IOS. manage to get pH about 7.6~7.8 maintain
I did about 45% WC also damp in alot of anti-chlorine.
I notice that there are bubblies more then normal. I know more alcoline water can happen also like wat u have mention. But the additional is just CC. maybe a little too much anti-chlorine.
My water surface bubblies but no oil residue.
tested water okay leh. wat does it mean
?

winkelhock 22-09-2005 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagemaru
u scare ppl leh...

paiseh...cos the last time my water got skimmed before so need to put back what is taken out...hence I included S7 inside:o



I treid that when with my outdoor glass tank once...and boom !!! overnite water spoil liao....after that i dun touch S7 or wat soever liao....normal diet like ghost shrimps and crickets good enough.....

terence28 22-09-2005 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkelhock
I dun even know what is agitation... :o

Current, disturbance, etc. Last nite we moved my water return pipe from surface level down to the tank bottom... thats one way to redice aggitation...

Kage, i got share hor... dun always say i never share!

winkelhock 22-09-2005 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terence28
Current, disturbance, etc. Last nite we moved my water return pipe from surface level down to the tank bottom... thats one way to redice aggitation...

Kage, i got share hor... dun always say i never share!



Kum sia kum sia....but i still have many agitation but then totally no agitaion the fish how to breathe??

Panther 22-09-2005 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagemaru
yes sir!

Like I mentioned earlier,

Algae and green water occurs due to excessive nitrates and nutrients in the water...

solve the problem of overfeeding will solve ur green water problem

normally I feed 80% of normal input amount during tanning experiment...its also better cos reds will not fall sick easily after a spate of rains

Master Kage,

Correct me if I'm wrong...the nitrates and nutrients occur due to the excessive waste generated by the fish and decomposition of uneaten food (eg. MP). There is also the generation of ammonia which will result in the nitrates. The nitrates, if not broken down or absorbed by any plant matter, will plague the water thus causing the algae problem.

Therefore, IMO, it's not just the overfeeding of the aros right? It should be more of whether the BB in the filter media is efficient enuff to breakdown the waste matters?

Moreover, the excessive amount of lights can also be a cause of the green water isn't it? Lastly, to remove the green water,would the passing of the water through a UVC be the best way (would this kill off the BB in the media too) or thru multiple WC? If through multiple WC, then how to change less so that parameter is not affected so drastically to cause stress while ridding the 6ft tank of the green water leh?

Just for discussion ;) :o

terence28 22-09-2005 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidnoise
no lah no hai.
Recently I revamp my IOS. manage to get pH about 7.6~7.8 maintain
I did about 45% WC also damp in alot of anti-chlorine.
I notice that there are bubblies more then normal. I know more alcoline water can happen also like wat u have mention. But the additional is just CC. maybe a little too much anti-chlorine.
My water surface bubblies but no oil residue.
tested water okay leh. wat does it mean
?

WC 45%.... u champion! Yr school of thought very hard to use Kage's method, cos yr water management is beyond us.

terence28 22-09-2005 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkelhock
Kum sia kum sia....but i still have many agitation but then totally no agitaion the fish how to breathe??

Like Kage said, u can have like air tube blowing bubbles, but fine ones & break up w minimun ripples...

kagemaru 22-09-2005 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidnoise
no lah no hai.
Recently I revamp my IOS. manage to get pH about 7.6~7.8 maintain
I did about 45% WC also damp in alot of anti-chlorine.
I notice that there are bubblies more then normal. I know more alcoline water can happen also like wat u have mention. But the additional is just CC. maybe a little too much anti-chlorine.
My water surface bubblies but no oil residue.
tested water okay leh. wat does it mean
?

2 things:

Firstly u just revamped the IOS...bacteria will be lost or insufficient to perform at its best

Secondly having alot of anti-chlorine doesnt mean no chloramine...most of the products on the shelf is not able to remove chloramines...and tats wat is added to our NEWATER

water surface bubbles need not show "oiliness" its just an illustration

liquidnoise 22-09-2005 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbird^
zhun bor?....

zhun do it once every 1-2 mth in betwwen weekly change 20% :p

liquidnoise 22-09-2005 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagemaru
2 things:

Firstly u just revamped the IOS...bacteria will be lost or insufficient to perform at its best

Secondly having alot of anti-chlorine doesnt mean no chloramine...most of the products on the shelf is not able to remove chloramines...and tats wat is added to our NEWATER

water surface bubbles need not show "oiliness" its just an illustration

so not good water now?
haiz, how to remedy?

kagemaru 22-09-2005 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panther
Master Kage,

Correct me if I'm wrong...the nitrates and nutrients occur due to the excessive waste generated by the fish and decomposition of uneaten food (eg. MP). There is also the generation of ammonia which will result in the nitrates. The nitrates, if not broken down or absorbed by any plant matter, will plague the water thus causing the algae problem.

Therefore, IMO, it's not just the overfeeding of the aros right? It should be more of whether the BB in the filter media is efficient enuff to breakdown the waste matters?

Moreover, the excessive amount of lights can also be a cause of the green water isn't it? Lastly, to remove the green water,would the passing of the water through a UVC be the best way (would this kill off the BB in the media too) or thru multiple WC? If through multiple WC, then how to change less so that parameter is not affected so drastically to cause stress while ridding the 6ft tank of the green water leh?

Just for discussion ;) :o

yes its all linked...nitrogen cycle...

ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, bacteria colony...I too tired to run through everything...but u can do a search on this

multiple WC without causing too much stress?

can --> my method is have a topup tank on the side...use a denitrator to filter off part of the water and into this auto top up tank...excess amount will overflow into the main sump area...this I call the gradual drip replacement method to filter off the waste...anyway there are many gadgets I multi-link into the sump...

Sump --> FBF --> tee off to Denitrator --> auto top up tank --> main tank

newbird^ 22-09-2005 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidnoise
mine IOS overflow system. so dun really need.
I think :confused:


oh..sorry..paiseh...

i mean for those who are using OHF :o

jwhtan 22-09-2005 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagemaru
Part 8: Secrets of light

Color Warmth

I will say this one time and one time only...mimic the sun is not wat the tanning regime should do

if u want to use sunshine --> 6500k is sufficient but it will take u long time to see the difference or rather not much difference if u are doing it at the wrong timing too

my preferred kelvins is > 10k tats the range I operating on

please pardon me, I have a few questions too

is there a reason why sunlight should not be mimicked ?? does this mean that arowanas in outdoor ponds that uses purely sunlight has a lower exposure to tanning than one that uses artificial lights tanning but done according to schedule ??

wat is the relation of kelvins to the tanning process ?? I have always thought tanning is through the wavelength of the lights, of perhaps 260nm - 400nm for UVB and UVA ...

since it is also known that glass filters away as much as 95% of the ultra violet rays, will tanning from the side then loses its desired effect ??

Vil 22-09-2005 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidnoise
I am interested to know why too much bubles indicates bad water? pls teach ooo mighty 1

after feed market prawn if ur aro chew and spit and chew, water sure cloudy and smelly and bubbles stay very long.... u think water is good? its another way of looking at it


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